New Monster/Enemies ideas

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Daedalus
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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by Daedalus » Jul 1st, 2013, 10:31

Cute, but there is no 50 body armour item within Blood.
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Blood + Focus = Love · Faith is the key · Heretics and traitors cannot stand before us · Some games are self-perpetuating - Blood requires conscientious communal effort to survive · We are the last line · Ask not for whom the main menu animates · Blood's promotion and survival - all other gaming considerations are secondary · More than just a game · Need a hint? · Make a stand

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by MoonStalkeR » Jul 1st, 2013, 17:13

Indeed, but having an enemy with standard 100 body armor would be spoiling the player. I've wondered about what the armor graphics may represent represent - could it actually be shield, chestplate, etc?

One problem with this monster style is not being able to fit in most levels. Although this horror trope would blend in Blood, I can only see it fitting in a few of the existing levels. E2M4, E3M2, E4M1, E4M2, and most of the Cryptic Passage maps come to mind. On the other hand, seeing a knight in The Lumber Mill or Monster Bait would be silly.
<Boilerplate> Thing is MoonStalkeR: You seem to be suffering from schizphernia, which the MoonStalkeR personality is your base one, Mobius is the aggressive personality, Krypto is the depressive personality, Nautalus is the pervert personality, etc

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by Daedalus » Jul 1st, 2013, 18:20

Evidence would suggest that the armours represent both; with all of the simpler armours being traditional shields, while the super armour would appear to a proper breastplate of ghastly design, as it would otherwise be extremely unwieldy.

A walking suit of armour would by no means be unique in being a monster in Blood consigned to a specific environment, but I wouldn't really see it being feasible based alone on quantity; how many suits of armour would a standard mansion have at most? The suit of armour sprite is fairly rare in Blood to begin with.
Kazashi wrote:Daedalus, I don't care how much you know about Blood, your attitude has to change.
Blood + Focus = Love · Faith is the key · Heretics and traitors cannot stand before us · Some games are self-perpetuating - Blood requires conscientious communal effort to survive · We are the last line · Ask not for whom the main menu animates · Blood's promotion and survival - all other gaming considerations are secondary · More than just a game · Need a hint? · Make a stand

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by Blood of Nightmares » Jul 1st, 2013, 18:24

Daedalus wrote:A walking suit of armour would by no means be unique in being a monster in Blood consigned to a specific environment, but I wouldn't really see it being feasible based alone on quantity; how many suits of armour would a standard mansion have at most? The suit of armour sprite is fairly rare in Blood to begin with.
Well then again, people can make custom Blood usermaps that add suits of armor in Mansions though.

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by MoonStalkeR » Jul 1st, 2013, 21:03

Yes, I forgot to mention the issue of quantity, which is more questionable than thematic compatibility. A mansion can't be expected to have more than a handful of specimens. I don't even recall a map that includes it other than The Overlook Hotel.
<Boilerplate> Thing is MoonStalkeR: You seem to be suffering from schizphernia, which the MoonStalkeR personality is your base one, Mobius is the aggressive personality, Krypto is the depressive personality, Nautalus is the pervert personality, etc

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by MoonStalkeR » Jul 4th, 2013, 00:16

Jelly
jelly.png
jelly.png (18 KiB) Viewed 2252 times
These amoeboid creatures quickly creep along the surface, engulfing victims while simultaneously sliming through their orifices for pre-digestion. Divides into two smaller versions twice when enough damage is taken. Through the blob's translucent cytoplasm, undigested remains of hapless victims are visible.

Leaves splatter on death

Type: monster/otherwordly
Tier: medium
Weakness: energy
Attack: Traps player in place while dealing damage. Tapping 'use' required to break free.

I was unsure whether it should be a traditional see-through, brightly colored blob or a dark, opaque one with possibly some vague organs ala shoggoth. The former seemed more comical and Bloodish.

Apostle

Image

Based on Blood II's zealot

Type: cabal/human
Tier: high
Weakness: see cultist

A disappointing part of Plasma Pak is two of the new enemies being boring recolors. Since the wizardish theme of the B2 zealot may not be the best for Blood, this one may just be better off just wielding a Tesla cannon instead of a staff and replacing the blue-robed Plasma Pak zealot.
<Boilerplate> Thing is MoonStalkeR: You seem to be suffering from schizphernia, which the MoonStalkeR personality is your base one, Mobius is the aggressive personality, Krypto is the depressive personality, Nautalus is the pervert personality, etc

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by Blood of Nightmares » Jul 4th, 2013, 03:10

MoonStalkeR wrote:A disappointing part of Plasma Pak is two of the new enemies being boring recolors. Since the wizardish theme of the B2 zealot may not be the best for Blood, this one may just be better off just wielding a Tesla cannon instead of a staff and replacing the blue-robed Plasma Pak zealot.
Actually the wizardly stuff would just fine in Blood, since there isn't too many magic using enemies, the Zealots from Blood 2 would be a perfect example or actually a replacement for the Tesla Cannon blue cultists...infact maybe only the cultists are robed while the Fanatics/Zealots/Acolytes can look something else or rather I think the Cabal can exists as variants which the cultists for example can look like agents in city/urban environments while they're robed in Cabal stronghold areas.

Or maybe the Robed Cultists or taken the role as Ascetic monks which they carry a curse layed by Tchernobog even they're immortal as in they cannot die from 'age' but their bodies very slowy (which takes years) rot and decay to corpselike proportions which is why they wear robes to cover their decaying bodies (combing that with religious reasons...) and they maybe eventually become ethereal thus how Phantasms come from which they're the final result of the curse....(well this is inspired by the Cappadocian and Harbringers of Skulls clan from Vampire: The Masquerade). Of course the decaying/rotting curse is symbolic to Asceticism which they are slowly abandoning the flesh (hence the rotting/decaying) to become spiritual over time (hence becoming Phantasms).

While the non-Monk Cabal members (like Caleb, Ophelia, Gaberial, Ishmael, the Blood 2 Cabal enemies) are normal but even immortal given by Tchernobog (which the cultist curse is a little tweak from that) which they can appear and appear anything they want which they instead taken the path of Hendoism the opposite of Asceticism since they embrace the flesh and act as blending into human society for the Cabal.

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by MoonStalkeR » Jul 4th, 2013, 05:28

I think the Acolytes can definitely turn into "average Joe" types instead of being identical to cultists. While the word "fanatic" carries less esoteric connotations than "cultist", the fanatics in Blood seem to fit a role no less arcane. It is hard to imagine all the fanatics, who were exposed to deep temples and otherworldly sights, as being less immersed within the Cabal. They were even the ones who formed a "last stand" in Dead Reckoning, for example.

During my earliest encounters with Phantasms, I actually did associate them with being "elite hags/cultists". I just see them as background entities who occasionally intervene in the Caleb vs. Cabal fray due to signaling from all the supernatural turbulence, but being a complete/transcendent form of monk would be an interesting origin.

lol, we are going deep into lore possibilities. Not that lore is necessary to Blood. Such additions can be intergrated without worrying too much on the back-stories, as long as they don't clash in real-time.
<Boilerplate> Thing is MoonStalkeR: You seem to be suffering from schizphernia, which the MoonStalkeR personality is your base one, Mobius is the aggressive personality, Krypto is the depressive personality, Nautalus is the pervert personality, etc

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by Daedalus » Jul 4th, 2013, 10:47

MoonStalkeR wrote:A disappointing part of Plasma Pak is two of the new enemies being boring recolors. Since the wizardish theme of the B2 zealot may not be the best for Blood
Fie! Blood's roots are in the arcane, which is part of its magic (pun appreciated, intended and solidified)! This is one of the enemies which, if given the correct touchups and gameplay elements, I'd say Blood could benefit tremendously from, but I think that itch you feel of them not belonging is just that they are yet another contextual enemy, of which Blood has a few.
MoonStalkeR wrote:During my earliest encounters with Phantasms, I actually did associate them with being "elite hags/cultists". I just see them as background entities who occasionally intervene in the Caleb vs. Cabal fray due to signaling from all the supernatural turbulence, but being a complete/transcendent form of monk would be an interesting origin.
Phantasms are perhaps Blood's most incidental opponents, which makes them quite fascinating. To clarify: they seem not only disassociated from the Cabal, but also the conflict which Blood encompasses entirely. It's the little things like that which make Blood so delightfully intriguing.
Kazashi wrote:Daedalus, I don't care how much you know about Blood, your attitude has to change.
Blood + Focus = Love · Faith is the key · Heretics and traitors cannot stand before us · Some games are self-perpetuating - Blood requires conscientious communal effort to survive · We are the last line · Ask not for whom the main menu animates · Blood's promotion and survival - all other gaming considerations are secondary · More than just a game · Need a hint? · Make a stand

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by MoonStalkeR » Jul 4th, 2013, 15:53

Blood may have been born in the arcane, but I think those magical themes gradually grew more subtle(instead of being a staple as in the alpha)

I agree that I was being too picky. In the case of the zealot, I guess I was afraid of a spellcasting wizard-type human being too "flamboyant" for Blood.
<Boilerplate> Thing is MoonStalkeR: You seem to be suffering from schizphernia, which the MoonStalkeR personality is your base one, Mobius is the aggressive personality, Krypto is the depressive personality, Nautalus is the pervert personality, etc

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by Daedalus » Jul 4th, 2013, 16:46

You're completely right, and Blood's magic heritage does shine through in tiny ways, with the voodoo doll being the most prominent example. They don't occur that frequently, but there's sufficient data in the game, as well as a few instances in the campaign where it veers towards the supernatural - with mainly your arsenal being the factor which pulls the player away from it.

I understand your fear of a wizard being a little 'out there', but if they were crafted correctly and doused in a bit of Blood's outstanding audio and thrown in suitable environments and not overused, they could turn out to be extremely effective. I'm certain that we'd have seen the arcane side of Blood more thoroughly explored if the development cycle had been a bit more thorough and Dead Reckoning wasn't 'pushed out the door', but sadly we'll be stuck dreaming of 'what ifs' now.

Would they have looked like the Blood 2 wizards, though? Gut feeling says no, but then those guys in Blood 2 are one of my very, very few soft spots for that atrocity.

Indeed, though, a 'goofy' wizard enemy would be out of the question completely. Still, Blood, throughout its development, has always had a romance with the magical, but only its flavour's been implemented. It certainly does add a unique touch - a constant tease towards the supernatural, but never quite going all out.
Kazashi wrote:Daedalus, I don't care how much you know about Blood, your attitude has to change.
Blood + Focus = Love · Faith is the key · Heretics and traitors cannot stand before us · Some games are self-perpetuating - Blood requires conscientious communal effort to survive · We are the last line · Ask not for whom the main menu animates · Blood's promotion and survival - all other gaming considerations are secondary · More than just a game · Need a hint? · Make a stand

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by Blood of Nightmares » Jul 4th, 2013, 20:58

MoonStalkeR wrote:I agree that I was being too picky. In the case of the zealot, I guess I was afraid of a spellcasting wizard-type human being too "flamboyant" for Blood.
Or maybe simply your being closed minded to the possibilities at hand.

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by MoonStalkeR » Jul 4th, 2013, 21:45

Blood of Nightmares wrote: Or maybe simply your being closed minded to the possibilities at hand.
I don't want to give the impression that I oppose any innovation. On the contrary, I would be welcoming to additions including monsters, weapons, and even graphics/rendering if it doesn't take away Blood's charm. I simply meant to be cautious and am not against expansion of the magical theme at all. There are many who would be more "conservative", though.

As Daedalus mentioned, Blood would carry even more features were it given time for additional creativity/calibrations. Episodes 1-3 are the climax of gaming history, but the quality begins to falter as we get deep into Dead Reckoning. As evidenced by the selection of unused graphics in Blood's files, the potential for improvement would not even be limited to better maps,
<Boilerplate> Thing is MoonStalkeR: You seem to be suffering from schizphernia, which the MoonStalkeR personality is your base one, Mobius is the aggressive personality, Krypto is the depressive personality, Nautalus is the pervert personality, etc

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by Daedalus » Jul 5th, 2013, 10:40

As to the jelly/mold suggestion, while it's an interesting implementation which I think finds its roots in Dungeons and Dragons (I speak under correction here), the first concern I have is that it might not be a horror archetype - is there a classical horror source in film or literature which features such creatures? I'm also a bit hesitant due to the enemy essentially being flat and on the ground - this makes firing on the opponent terribly awkward and I could picture it causing all sorts of corruption with one's autoaim. Also, it seems it may force a player to look down in order to kill or attack it, where the Build game philosophy ideally requires that one never really has to look up or down (obviously more advanced players will insist on it, but this is the thinking and many players play without doing so). Imagine yourself being on a lower surface than this creature. In my mind, I picture it being invisible from such a vantage point and that can't be good design at all.

What happens when it touches water? (:
Kazashi wrote:Daedalus, I don't care how much you know about Blood, your attitude has to change.
Blood + Focus = Love · Faith is the key · Heretics and traitors cannot stand before us · Some games are self-perpetuating - Blood requires conscientious communal effort to survive · We are the last line · Ask not for whom the main menu animates · Blood's promotion and survival - all other gaming considerations are secondary · More than just a game · Need a hint? · Make a stand

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Re: New Monster/Enemies ideas

Post by MoonStalkeR » Jul 5th, 2013, 20:13

DnD probably popularized it for the RPG world, but the first fiction that comes to my mind when I think of this archetype is "The Blob", a classic film. It features a growing gelatinous organism of extraterrestrial origin. The shoggoths from the works of Lovecraft also fit into this, though they are not translucent and have random organelles like eyes, tentacles, etc. Part of the reason why I thought it would fit well is its role as a horror archetype, actually. The tvtropes page features many examples.

I had not intended the blob to be flattened on the floor, I pictured it being vertically as tall as the player, while being several times as wide. When it becomes waterborne, perhaps it should be just as dangerous with ability move in three dimensions, while maintaining a more defined shape compared to oozing on land. That, or it can just dissolve! On Lightly Broiled and below, it should only be able to divide once :D

By the way, have you played the arcade game "Vern the Monster Killer"? It is strongly reminiscent of Blood, even starting off with the protagonist's love being abducted by supernatural forces. It is based on simplistic sidescrolling while shooting various monsters such as giant spiders, snot-like blobs, skeletons, hooded spectres, etc. It is extremely difficult and I cannot get past the fourth stage :bang: I will eventually try to conquer it, but if anyone else does, please tell us what monsters the later levels feature!

I think it was late 90s when I first tried this game. It was nothing special in terms of gameplay, but has never disappeared from my memory since with its catchy horror theme. I was able to get it working through either of these two pages:

http://www.ezone.com/games/vern/
http://www.searchamateur.com/Play-Free- ... Killer.htm
<Boilerplate> Thing is MoonStalkeR: You seem to be suffering from schizphernia, which the MoonStalkeR personality is your base one, Mobius is the aggressive personality, Krypto is the depressive personality, Nautalus is the pervert personality, etc

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