Occultism thread

General discussion that doesn't fit in the other boards.
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Dimebog
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Post by Dimebog » Jul 24th, 2009, 14:34

NAto wrote:Moar emotion MOAR.

Edited my previous post by the way.
I know. Scientists are the emotional ones. Religious freaks are rational.
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Post by NAto » Jul 24th, 2009, 14:40

I didn't see any science in your posts though :D By the way science is on my side in this one.

I'm the only religious one here and at the same time I feel like I'm the only one who is being rational :?

People need to calm down though, I can already see emotions running high.

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Post by Dimebog » Jul 24th, 2009, 14:58

Man if you think I am being emotional here, you don't know me well enough. My pulse is barely running as I type this.

Whether the Catholic Church is a terrorist organization or not can be disputed in an argument. It's actually a popular subject, there are even books written on it. I didn't just pull that phrase out of my ass just because I am emotional.

What you are doing is advocating in favour of organizations who preach their respective cultural folklore as exclusive universal truths. That is a logical fallacy in itself. And that is exactly how you presented your case here.
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Post by Umnir » Jul 24th, 2009, 15:00

The belief in big bang is different compared to how believers believe in god.
Big bang is generally accepted theory, not belief (althought, in way, it's belief, but not really like belief belief... belief).

Science is based on facts and theories. Religion is based on beliefs.

The beginning of life is one of the biggest mindfucks of our lives, a thing we may never comprehend. The biggest criticism against big bang is: where did it start from and when, and where did it come from if there was nothing?

But let me ask: where did god come from, when and why and what was before? If god never was born, but was always, how old is he? And if he has no age, then how long has he existed? Forever? So why haven't we existed forever?

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Post by Dimebog » Jul 24th, 2009, 15:07

"Forever" measures in time, obviously. The concept of God should exist outside of the concept of time, or space.
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Post by Umnir » Jul 24th, 2009, 15:09

I could see a humorous question in place here.

You ask god to make a rock that is too heavy for anyone to lift. If god makes it and he cannot lift it, he is no more allmighty (because he cannot lift the rock). And if he can lift it, he is no more allmighty (because he cannot make heavy enough stone).

(question also known as religious granny mindfucker) :lol:

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Post by Umnir » Jul 24th, 2009, 15:10

Ah so god is timetraveler eh? Or he travels in the warp?

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Post by Dimebog » Jul 24th, 2009, 15:14

If you exist outside of the constraints of time and space, why would you need to travel?

If no one can lift the stone, that means that God would first need to be someone to fall into the category of anyone or no one. And God is not someone.
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Post by NAto » Jul 24th, 2009, 15:29

Dime has the gist of what I am trying to say :D
Dimebog wrote:Man if you think I am being emotional here, you don't know me well enough. My pulse is barely running as I type this.
Don't lie I saw you sweating there :D
Dime wrote:Whether the Catholic Church is a terrorist organization or not can be disputed in an argument. It's actually a popular subject, there are even books written on it. I didn't just pull that phrase out of my ass just because I am emotional.
Even I can admit their shortcomings (:lol:), but they don't represent Christianity as a whole.
Dime wrote:What you are doing is advocating in favour of organizations who preach their respective cultural folklore as exclusive universal truths. That is a logical fallacy in itself. And that is exactly how you presented your case here.
I suppose at this point I'll point out that I am not a judeo-christian, and do not see things as "mainstream" Christians do. I do not subscribe to mainstream teachings and haven't even been to church in about four years. All I say here is the result of my own thought and reasoning. With that in mind, I'm not sure what you're saying :?

umnir wrote:The belief in big bang is different compared to how believers believe in god.
Big bang is generally accepted theory, not belief (althought, in way, it's belief, but not really like belief belief... belief).
It is exactly the same as big bang theory is simply a theory, and has not been proven. Not even the premises underlying big bang theory have been proven - any big bang theorist will admit to this.
Umnir wrote:The beginning of life is one of the biggest mindfucks of our lives, a thing we may never comprehend. The biggest criticism against big bang is: where did it start from and when, and where did it come from if there was nothing?
That is a creationist's criticism of big bang theory, whereas my (and other's) criticisms are scientific. For example, the outer shell of light which has had time to reach us is assumed to be the edge of the universe. There is no more reason to see it as the edge of the universe than to see it as merely the light which has had time to reach us.
Umnir wrote:But let me ask: where did god come from, when and why and what was before? If god never was born, but was always, how old is he? And if he has no age, then how long has he existed? Forever? So why haven't we existed forever?
God by definition is outside of any concept we can think of. I think Dime brought that across, though.

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Post by Daedalus » Jul 24th, 2009, 15:32

NAto wrote:Having said all that I have a lot of respect for the views of someone like Matt, who's opinion when summed into a two words is, "Who knows?" (correct me if I'm wrong)
Thanks.
Umnir wrote:it's belief, but not really like belief belief... belief
lol.
Umnir again wrote:You ask god to make a rock that is too heavy for anyone to lift.
This has the scent of Epicurus' argument. My favour doesn't lean towards it, as it attempts to rationalise God's capability within human reason. This is no different than some ambitious tiny animal attempting to measure human understanding of morality.

* * *

It will never cease to amaze me how divisive and contraversial a topic religion and/or faith is. A discussion which delves into the philosophical, hypothetical, esoteric and the metaphysical certainly seems to carry a hefty weight of corporeality in tow! By the arguments, generally speaking, and the avowed qualifications of both sides and stereotypes associated with each, one would expect an uneven debate, but in the end there always comes a reduction toward reactionary balderdash. It is a pity.
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Post by Umnir » Jul 24th, 2009, 15:46

It's funny how creatonists (or whatever) critic the big band as there is no proof. As if there was proof for god or anything relating. Bunch of mid-easterns made up some well marketed shit in ancient times, most of it copied from greek and egyptian mythos, adding the biggest seller feature humanism to it (as opposed to the virgin eater three headed dragons and shit).

To me, the expansion of universe is a good pointer to the big bang, wether it's just forever cycle of expansions and reduction or one big band.

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Post by NAto » Jul 24th, 2009, 15:50

Umnir wrote:It's funny how creatonists (or whatever) critic the big band as there is no proof. As if there was proof for god or anything relating.
That's exactly what I'm saying. Neither of us can prove anything :D
Umnir wrote:To me, the expansion of universe is a good pointer to the big bang, wether it's just forever cycle of expansions and reduction or one big band.
The expansion of the universe falls into my previous critique, whereby more and more light is continually reaching us and gives the illusion of an expanding universe. The expansion of the universe is a yet-to-be-proven premise of big bang theory.

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Post by Daedalus » Jul 24th, 2009, 15:56

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Kazashi wrote:Daedalus, I don't care how much you know about Blood, your attitude has to change.
Blood + Focus = Love · Faith is the key · Heretics and traitors cannot stand before us · Some games are self-perpetuating - Blood requires conscientious communal effort to survive · We are the last line · Ask not for whom the main menu animates · Blood's promotion and survival - all other gaming considerations are secondary · More than just a game · Need a hint? · Make a stand

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Post by Umnir » Jul 24th, 2009, 15:59

It would be so cool to really believe, that in the beginning of time there was only sea and a sexy lady slept in the sea with knee popping out. Then a bird lands on the knee and lays egg. The egg get's so hot that the lady has to retract the leg to the sea and while doing that, breaking the egg that creates the land.

But atheism makes more sense.

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Post by kurt » Jul 24th, 2009, 20:59

Religion was created by man to give comfort, purpose and structure to mankind. The idea that we are truly alone is a very scary thought for some, because there has to be someone or something to watch over us, and a place to go when our existence ends. But consider that we are individually nothing more then a grain of sand in the expanding desert of the universe. We are born, live, and die, just like weeds in the forest, without any greater significance or purpose, and the ultimate reward for our daily struggles is eventual eternal darkness.

This is an unbearable thought for most people. So beliefs were created to bring comfort, purpose and direction to those who simply could not exist without them. Some will hold so strong to those beliefs that they will fight and go to war to retain their personal comfort. But a belief is not reality, in the same way that we all once outgrew our beliefs in Santa and the Tooth Fairy.

I'd personally like to believe that God is a scientist in a laboratory and he's constructed an experiment in an aquarium. He occasionally observes through his microscope, what looks like ants running aimlessly around. At one point just moments ago, he sent his scientist son's consciousness into the experiment to observe and interact with the life that was created. This belief could be just as valid as an omnipotent being sitting in the clouds, that passes judgment on individuals, like Santa making a list of who's been naughty and nice.

Ultimately there is no answer and there never will be. We are all individually God's over our own personal universe.
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